The Egotistical Priest
An irreverent and opinionated discussion of the many classes
in the World of Warcraft gaming universe.
EgoLock - Hardcore vs Casual
by Vonya
Hey friends, EgoLock here. The Ego Priest is out sick today so wish her a Happy Birthday and merry Christmas and all that, maybe she will be back to feeling up to the task come Thursday.
For todays post I have decided to open a can of worms and let you guys do most of the work in the replies. Arent I a nice guy? You betcha!.
Here it is….
Where do “casual” and “hardcore” start and stop?
First, I pose to you friends a hypothetical scenario (maybe). A guild has had something of a recruitment run lately. Said guild is poised on the cusp, edging past the 10 man raid setting and into the vast depths of the 25 man raids. While balanced on the edge of the abyss, this guild has had said recruitment run, many have joined in a seeming short amount of time.
Now, while said guild was positioned to simply endure the 10 man raid setting, there was no force in spec what-so-ever, if you liked it you were allowed to play it, all that was asked was a measure of competence (that requirement not always being met mind you).
Now one more step forward and into the great dark unknown this hypothetical guild will go. They will have old people that have seen the inside of Kara enough to know what color the tapestry and where every single mob stands. Some of these have seen these sights grouped together some have not. And then they will have the “younger” crew. Those that have simply not had the luxury of seeing this content quite as much.
Now that the settings are out on the table, here comes the main course.
In our hypothetical scenario guild (as mentioned) never enforced any type of gearing or spec. Once that final step towards the great beyond is taken, should they start some small amount of enforcement of stat/talent point placement before “allowing” each individual to attend?
December 18th, 2007
Hm. I believe said hypothetical guild should prooobably… cultivate a series of acceptable specs, so that people still have options that are not based around ONE build. (Although for something like an Enhancement Shaman, the only real build difference are the last 2 talent points going into Elem or Resto)…
But some enforcement should be made, I believe, because in 25-mans there is less room for “WTF” specs, and more of a need for increasing focus on the raid itself. At some point you have to stop saying “teehee I just raid for the fun of it and my spec is like 20/20/21″, and at least accept a better spec from a more skilled player so that as you still do your ‘teehee”, at the very least the numbers are better.
December 18th, 2007
Well. Hypothetically speaking, if said guild were to start enforcing said requirements, then I think it has taken a step toward “hardcore”.
But the line that must be crossed for it to /be/ hardcore is this: if said hypothetical guild were to enforce such a thing, could it carry it off?
What if the membership collectively said “Screw you, I do a great job as a (hypothetical) Demon-spec Warlock, better than you’ll ever meet again, so take your Affliction Spec requirement and spin on it? Would there /be/ any 25 man raids? If the answer is NO, then it is a casual guild with wannabee hardcore tendencies.
My guild’s so small it can’t even dictate makeup for 10-man raids. But I love my guild and adore many of my guildies.
Now there IS a line even for us. One does not merely roll off the L70 assembly line and expect to get a free ride into Kara, for example. You have to be geared. If you are not, and somebody else that is geared IS available, then you won’t make it into Kara that often, and when you do you will be with raid groups that will probably not make it anyway. So while we don’t have a gearing requirement, we do go with what works best.
That includes spec, but very few of us would turn down, for example, a Survival specced Hunter even if BRK stood in the room himself and smote us with his righteous indignation. As even he has admitted, a SV hunter has his or her place, and if that place works for us, then we’re a bunch of little Fonzies.
Best of luck to the Hypothetical family.
December 18th, 2007
DPS, TPS, HPS: That sums it all depending on what class you play. Find out what combined or solo values you need and, as long as those in charge of those can deliver them, they can use whatever spec they want. Surely you don’t want the main healer to be shadow, but if he is, then he shouldn’t be able to meet the required HPS with a set maximum TPS from that build since Holy will heal for more and with less threat…
Just an idea though!
December 18th, 2007
You see, I’m not really against different specs… like.
Sure, be survival in a 25-man. That’ll help the melee DPS greatly. Beast Mastery is great too, and so is Marks… but those are all specs that can stand on their own. I get annoyed when I see specs that make NO SENSE being employed and people don’t see what the problem is. Anytime I see “Hybrid” (that isn’t a DPS Warrior) on Armory, I get nervous.
Real nervous…
Go down whatever tree you like, I believe, making people pick ONE SPEC is a bit much… but, make sure you get the right build for that tree. I think the hypothetical guild would still be casual if they let people raid with their “pvp” specs, so long as said people were geared right and tried hard enough.
I think 10-mans just give more room to be experimenting. But by the time you step into a 25-man, know your spec well enough to be good with it. If you’re a rogue and the shaman is outdpsing you (equally geared), then it’s either your spec or your playstyle, both of which need to be tweaked to at least put you where you belong.
December 18th, 2007
@Grimmtooth
Sounds like you are in a similar spot enough to have had some of the same feelings. Said hypothetical guild does indeed have many a smart player.
As another example I, in my actual guild have ran as every spec for the warlock while in Kara. I have seen the strong and weak of each.
(Demo has substantially more +spell damage than the other specs, until your pet dies. Destro is fantastic for burst damage and raw dps but doesnt have the self sustainability of affliction and carries more threat overall. Affliction warlocks almost never have to drink when played correctly and that accounts for still outputting massive dps.)
My guild is as understanding as yours. Especially to the player that wants to test spec to see how it performs. This is because said testing, in most cases, gives the player of the class knowledge they did not have. And perhaps allows them to perform their role better.
I know Ego Priest has altered her spec as well several times as we have drudged through Kara. She even tested lol-well for a while. And let me tell you EgoLock clicked the lol-well. Oh yes he did.
But all that aside. What about the players that don’t test spec? Do you entice them do do so in some way? How do you motivate people to understand that gear upgrades alone are not always what is needed to strengthen their performance?
December 18th, 2007
First things first: Happy Birthday, Ego (and feel better FAST)! And since I may not get back this way before then, have Merry Christmas!
Now on to EgoLock’s question. I think Grimmtooth’s analysis is pretty close. One thing I hate to hear is “Because we’ve always done it this way and it works.”
Granted, a melee hunter tanking any level 70 instance isn’t going to work. But does that mean the melee hunter can’t be effective in any place in a 5-man? What about a 10-man? (Assuming he’s properly geared of course.) I know this is an extreme example, but I think we all build prejudices on what works and what doesn’t. What works is someone in encounter-appropriate gear–but I believe gear is secondary to a player who maximizes the potential of his or her spec.
On the other hand, is a 51/10/0 BM hunter really maximizing their potential? (I saw just such a build last night, then compared that person’s gear to mine–I’ll take me anytime!)
But how do I know, just looking at the talents and gear on that other hunter, that she couldn’t do as well as I in an instance or raid? I don’t…until I give her the opportunity to prove it. So I’m going to set up opportunities for both of us to hit Tempest Keep instances or BM or similar. I may take my priest, or I may take my hunter. I want to see how well she traps. Does she know how to use Misdirect? If I’m on my priest, do I have to waste precious seconds checking her pet’s health? (For a 51/10 BM, I damn well better not!) If she can play her class, and play it well (even though I seriously doubt she’d top me on the damage meter), then I’m going to give her a shot.
So okay, we’ve addressed the spec issue. But what about gear? Obviously, better gear = better survivability. Skill can only take you so far: If you only have 4.5K health because your’re “undergeared” you’re going to be a liability. So I don’t think there’s anything hardcore about requiring minimum stats to go into Kara–how you get there should be up to you. Otherwise…we’re talking hardcore.
All that being said…LFM for Botanica, BM and Shattered Halls.
December 18th, 2007
Happy birthday Ego!
Oh I want in on this discussion.
What’s the difference between casual and hardcore? I think it all boils down on your attitude. For example, Carnage only raids three nights a week for a total of 11 hours. Depending on your perspective, that could be viewed as casual or hardcore (for me it’s casual).
25 mans are different then 10s. You could get away with certain things in Kara, but you might not be able to in something like Gruul’s or Mag.
Let’s try it this way:
Set up a foundation of the classes and specs that you KNOW you will need for sure (the Prot Warrior, and a handful of druids). Then build around that. It’s nice to have a variety of specs for different purposes. Priests have been blessed recently with the raiding viability of all THREE trees. Yes, even going full disc is enough to raise the eyebrow of a raid leader. Pain Suppression DOES have it’s moments.
December 18th, 2007
There are different ways of looking at “Hardcore” VS “Casual”. I think the easiest way to seperate the two is your commitment to the game.
I would like to think I’m someone who plays a limited amount of time but is Hardcore when I play. I research the best specs and methods of healing. As does most of my guild.
My guild has never enforced specs. We have encouraged people to do the best they can, and in ZA if you are a burden on the raid you get bumped. In Kara we have set up a policy that if you are in ZA you get bumped for someone who isn’t. It’s almost a backwards method but we are trying to gear up our friends so we can do 25 mans.
90% of my guild knows each other outside of WoW so that calms alot of potential issues. If you can’t keep up, you are holding your REAL LIFE FRIENDS back and you adjust, or step out.
December 18th, 2007
Someone, I nodded with DPS and TPS, and then balked at HPS — which in turn made me rethink the other two. Well, DPS anyway. Not that I don’t think those aren’t important, but stopping there is stopping too soon. Sticking solely with HPS…
If I’m taking you as a healer, I need to decide if you’re going to be group or tank heals. Either way, I need to know that for bursts you can heal a certain amount (that’s the HPS), but at the same time I want to know if you have the (potential) endurance to last the entire fight. Your priest can heal 2K HPS (yes, that’s absurd) - but you’re OOM in 10 seconds? And you have a regen of less than 75 mp5 in combat? Next candidate, please.
@Egolock, I’m generally against fixed talent point placement - specs - though I do have some exceptions. That is - there are talents in every class that are significant gains for the raid. So my enforcement - were I to agree - would be “don’t care what you do as long as you keep talent X”. That said, in your hypothetical case…
If you didn’t start with required specs, changing to required specs will split a number of guildies off. You changed the environment. Before I made such a change, I’d look long and hard at what people I’d be losing - because sometimes the ‘heart’ of the guild isn’t the ‘bestest player’. If, however, everyone who matters to you and those who decide will stay, then I agree with folks above that at least SOME focus will be of significant use in getting into and through higher level instances. Again I’ll caveat that what YOU may think is the best spec/talent may not be, really. I’ve had enough experience to realize that in the hands of a dedicant a commonly accepted “worthless” spell/talent may turn out to be a game-maker. Thus extreme caution is advised before making talent spec requirements “fixed”.
December 18th, 2007
Here’s a first-hand account of a Hardcore vs. Casual raiding guild.
My last guild was a “casual” raiding guild. Kara 3 nights a week and, if enough people were on, maybe make an attempt in Gruul’s.
The problem was, when some folks felt the desire to go for Gruul’s and the necessary amount and class of people weren’t there, some folks got pissy. I’m not a raider. Never have been. I play a few hours a day as relaxation and to have some fun. Raiding fills neither of those needs for me. So the guild decided to go on a massive recruiting run and dump the hangers-on. Courtesy of me being a non-raider, I received the unwelcome /gkick. That, I believe, changed them from being casual to hardcore. An extreme example? I’m not so sure as I’ve heard this happening far too many times to count.
December 18th, 2007
I reckon that if you merely ask that question, you’re hard-core. It’s a computer game, for goodness sake. Does it matter? Who cares what spec you have or don’t have?
If that question irritates you, then you’re hard-core, practically by definition.
Now, this is not to say that a hard-core player is somehow “worse” than a casual player. I’m not saying that. But it’s definitely a different attitude towards the game. If you care enough to exclude nice pleasant people from your social grouping based soley on their perceived utility to your own goals, then you’re hard-core, like it or not.
However, I get the impression that people often don’t like to be called hard-core. As if this, somehow, makes them a lesser person. This is just silly. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to do the very very best you can, even in a computer game. But for goodness sake, why not just admit it?
Me? I’m definitely casual. Very. I don’t even know what specs a warlock has. Wouldn’t have a clue. Couldn’t care less.
@Matticus: Your classification of yourself as a casual player is curious. If you played tennis for a minimum of 11 hours every week, for months, possibly years, on end, would you consider yourself a casual tennis player?
December 18th, 2007
I personally prefer to leave the ‘hardcore’ vs ‘casual’ tags out of any discussion, and focus on the competency of a player.
While I don’t necessarily believe that there is One True Spec for every class, I also don’t believe that it should be anything goes talent-wise either. There’s a fine line between letting a ret pally in a raid versus letting a “ret pally” specced 20/20/21 in a raid, with that one point difference making him “ret”.
By that token, I believe that there are certain talents that a specific class (subclass) should take and be expected to take when raiding. For instance, a shadow priest without shadow affinity maxed out or vampiric touch shouldn’t be allowed to go. In fact, I’d take a ret pally or a boomkin over that spriest.
I’ve always believed that you spec to support your gear, and your gear is chosen to support your spec. In my guild (you can call us hardcore since we’re working on Illidan now, I guess), all three shadow priests are specced differently. One’s 11/0/50, another’s 14/0/47, but without shadow focus maxed out because he has a lot of hit in his gear, and I’m 14/0/47, but with shadow focus maxed out because I don’t have as much spell hit. All three of us are geared slightly differently dependent on winning raid drops, getting arena gear, getting crafted gear made, and our specs were chosen to support our gear.
Following that line of thought, a toon should be specced to support their role in the raid. As in pally tanks should be some form of prot, bear tanks should be some form of feral, warrior tanks should be some form of prot. Just because one is a warrior with a shield doesn’t mean you can tank a raid instance as fury. (Yes, I’ve seen it attempted. It was not pretty.) Healers should be specced to heal, DPSers should be specced to DPS… with one caveat.
I’m pretty sure that most, if not all, classes have talents to enhance their raid group. For some classes it’s obvious (i.e. VE, VT for shadow priests) for others, it’s not. Imp curses for an affliction lock is pretty key, even if they need to put up CoS or CoE instead of CoA. Ferocious Inspiration for BM Hunters is another group buff talent… a lot of talents that one wouldn’t take because it doesn’t help in solo work, or is pretty meh in 5-mans can shine in raids.
So I’d say yes and no. There has to be some enforcement of spec, so you don’t have a wannabe shadow priest running around in Kara without shadow affinity, shadowform or VT (”smite being the best DPS spell, lol”), but you don’t have to be a nazi about it, either, because there is more than one right spec. There are also a lot more “wrong specs” than you think.
December 18th, 2007
@Sweetpetal - I really liked the tennis line - I don’t know that I’ve ever considered it quite like that before.
As to the discussion at hand - I don’t like guilds that force you into cookie cutter specs. Do you need x number of tanks, dps and healers? Then make sure you have them. Should every druid have to have ToL in order to be called a healer? What if that hunter likes Spirit Bond because it helps with downtime while NOT raiding?
A guild that takes what they have and succeeds is always better in my opinion. Would it be easier if JoeBob had a different spec? Maybe. Is it possible without forcing him to change? Usually.
December 18th, 2007
Casual vs hardcore - That’s an easy one, it’s all relative:
A hardcore player plays more than you do and a casual player plays less than you do.
As for enforcement of spec and gear, I’ve seen both sides.
Pre-BC, my former guild never enforced spec or gear. We used random rolls to roster raids and it was based on class needs (two highest rolls for hunters get in, other ones are alted). We progressed, not that quickly but we worked our way through MC, BWL and three bosses into AQ40.
Post-BC, my current guild doesn’t enforce spec much but is a bit more picky on gear. We still use the same rostering tool but people will get alted even if they have the top roll for their class if it’s a learning night and better geared people have rolled lower. Spec isn’t genereally enforced but the raid leaders don’t hesitate to say: “we need you to tank tonight, here’s the portal to IF, we’ll summon you back.” The mages know if we’re going after a fire resistant mob that they’ll be expected to spec out of fire for the raid. We don’t know what our destination is before start time so a lot of respeccing happens on the fly once we know where we’re going. We’re also expected to use food and other consumables. Everyone is expected to be flasked on learning nights.
We’re progressing faster than the old guild did. I think it’s mainly due to the fact that we don’t farm anything. We only raid 8.5 hours per week and we’ve killed 2/4 TK and 3/6 SSC. Not bad for a mostly “casual” bunch.
December 18th, 2007
I’m going to limit my commit entirely to spec for now
The guild I’m in doesn’t force specs per se, but you should be able to recognize what is good and what isn’t within a certain tree. For instance, take an elemental shaman. We have no problem with elemental shaman; and imo, they simply kick ass. But what kind of elemental shaman are you? Let’s say you went with 40/0/21 to get Nature’s Swiftness instead of Totem of Wrath (a typical build for that being 41/0/20) because you liked it in pvp. Well, casual or hardcore, we are a raiding guild, and that spec just doesn’t make sense for the raid. You are gimping both your own dps and party dps, and somewhat is going to have to cover for you now. I don’t care if you’re hardcore or casual, that’s just kinda rude. Some of it may just be that you didn’t know how to fill in some of the minor talent points or whatever - that’s no problem and can be worked with if need be. If you can make a spec work, you won’t be questioned on it though, most likely.
Consider it this way: if everyone in the raid were specced in a similar way (I don’t mean the same spec, I mean their emphasis on raid pve talents) to you, had the same skill level in execution as you, had the same gear level you do, and used the same amount/quality of consumables as you, would the raid be a success? If not, don’t you think you are being unfair to the other people? I’ve heard people say that they’re never going to top any meters with build XX but they do ok with build YY which they really like, so… First of all, only one person can literally top it, but there are two things to consider here. 1: Are you weaker on dps because you provide utility that increases the overall raids dps/survivability, or because your build has a lot of emphasis on things that aren’t used in raids? If it’s the former, no problem whatsoever. If it’s the latter, point #2 needs to be considered: if everyone in the raid had the same dps as you, would the bosses die before the enrage timer, or does it only work if you have someone to pick up your slack?
As it turns out, the guild I’m in has someone with just about every talent build, including some unpopular ones. We’ve got a ret paladin, boomkins, frost mages, elemental shamans, enhancement shamans, demo warlocks, destro warlocks, BM marks and survival hunters, shadow priests and holy priests, prot paladins and holy paladins etc. If you can make the spec viable, go for it. If you suck at it and are being a burden on the raid, I dispute any claim that we are being hardcore by saying sorry, you’re sitting out on this one.
December 18th, 2007
Excellent post and wonderful contributions all around.
Disclosure: I am in a ‘casual guild’ (guild leaders opinion) populated with members who left a ‘ardcore’ guild. To my perspective, it seems hardcore (10-person raids 3-5 nights a week and one night dedicated to a 25-person attempt).
After my guild experiences (here and elsewhere), I do not trust the management to dictate spec/talent/gear to the members. I realize there are many players who play different classes and have a wide amount of experience with the mechanics of this game. However, no person can know it all. It’s worse when someone thinks they know how a class works, but has misunderstood a talent or does not realize there is a debate regarding the effectiveness of certain abilities or builds.
I like the idea of talking about what needs to happen instead of what gear you need to get it done or what talent treet you need filled to get there. Sunday, my guild made its first attempt on TK/Eye, but had to pug 2 additional warlocks to complete the group. While waiting for the run to start, all the warlocks went off together and figured out what they were doing: who had which curse, SS rotations, etc… We did what has to happen for each player — healers figuring out how to divide up the .. err… heals, tanks to divide up MT/OT duties and so on and so forth.
For a raid to work, you need people who are going to make the effort into contributing to the raid. No raid leader can tell everyone what to do or how to do it. Nor should they; there’s too much going on for the raid leader to be bothered by every deatil of another player.
(Btw: 1 warlock was a SL/SL spec — an arena focused boutique spec including siphon life and soul link for those unaware of it — and he kept up on the damage meters while maintaining an appropriately low threat. He also was on CoA duty, but I won’t begrudge him that.)
Gear is a different story. Every raid instance appears to have a gear check. But again, how does a raid leader figure out whether a player is geared enough to run? I know warlock gear pretty well, but don’t ask me how to gear a resto shaman or that boomkin. This goes back to the issue of trust.
So, everyone should be allowed to attend if they wish to run, so long as they are willing to do some minimal work to be prepared. Not just invovling spec/gear, but about stratagies and boss tactics. My guild requires this, and I think it has the (intended?) consequence of getting the serious people invovled. Plus, in reading a selection a player wi9ll likely come across the idea that maybe they won’t have what it takes to get the job done. A bit of self-removal, yes?
Hardcore = people who like homework.
Final idea == a ‘good’ raid leader can make all the difference in the world. Need a little patience, some wide knowledge of the game, extrensive reading, patience, a decent sense of humor, patience, a limitless ability to withstand despair and frustration, flexibility, and hmm … did I say patience?
December 18th, 2007
I think that the moment you consider applying these sorts of policies to guild members you have taken a step toward hard-core. I also think some sort of guidelines are required for anything post-Kara, and might even be required for upper Kara depending on the guild.
For dps, the amount of dps you can put out is much more important than spec. If you can make some oddball spec work for you, more power to you. But you’ve got to put out the damage. A mage putting out 250 dps is not going to cut it, but over 500 is likely fine for Kara, even if the person could be doing better. I imagine post-Kara that number is going to climb quickly. And of course as the other commenters have mentioned, certain classes are defined by a talent, vt for spriests for example, and in that case, that part of the spec is non-negotiable.
Healing and tanking are both harder to quantify.
I think one of the tricks is that things seems to ramp up after Kara. It’s like EgoTank said in his giant neon sign comment “NO SUCKING BEYOND THIS POINT.” Guilds that have been casually raiding Kara think they can take the same attitudes and make it work in ZA and in 25 man content, and from what I can tell so far, that’s just not possible.
I’d also like to toss my hat in the ring and comment on the hard core / casual naming scheme. It’s really too restrictive and not descriptive enough. I think what really matters is that the guild members agree on the philosophy and on the time commitment. Some people want a sandlot baseball game where skill doesn’t matter. Some people want that same relaxed once a week game but expect people to be able to play. Some people want to play in a league three nights a week where skill is required and the competition is increased. Each category is playing the game for fun and each category considers the game a hobby, but they likely wouldn’t play well together.
December 19th, 2007
The only difference between casual and hardcore players is the amount of time that is set aside for the game. Progression into the game is usually a good indicator of the time spent playing since it takes time, effort, and skill to progress whereas non-progression is easily attainable by doing nothing, slacking, and sucking.
As far as forcing players to spec into any specific builds, trees, or skills, I am vehemently opposed to it. Personally, I do not have the right to tell someone how to play WoW until I am paying for their subscriptions, electricity cost, and providing them with a paycheck and a dental plan. In short, they aren’t my employees, so I cannot order them around. If I am their guild leader, the most I can do is request and hope they bend. If they don’t, all I can do is remove them (and lose the player entirely). Either way, I lose.
I believe that players, when given a proper chance, will play their characters to the best of their abilities. Nobody logs on and says “Today, I am going to suck” (unless ‘hooking’ is one of their professions). Every player wants to play to the best of their ability and have fun. By forcing people to spec a certain way, you are not only removing the enjoyment from the game, but you are (in essence) robbing them of $15 a month.
When guilds force specs, they run the risk of losing good members that they would have otherwise retained.
December 19th, 2007
It is good to know other casusl/softcore raiding guilds have experienced the same issues moving from kara into 25 man raids :).
I have read all the different opinions on the right riding spec. I must say that, as I raid as a holy priest most of the time, I have very little sympathy for those dps classes who like to maintain some PVP or grinding talents because “they still do OK in raids”. I do not know what the other priests experience is but if I want to give my absolute best in raids, that leaves my character virtually useless for any kind of PVP, questing or farming unless supported by a friend. That is why I levelled my lock to 70 so I can PVP or farm gold with it. I personally feel that if I went any sort of hybrid spec with my priest I would be cheating my colleagues out of potential progress and that is universally understood as I see very few raiding priests with anything other that a healing maximizing spec.
I am not saying everyone should go to a cookie cutter spec and I know by experience that spec needs to adapt and complement the gear you have got at each moment. However, it makes me pretty mad to see people who could be contributing so much more (think of all those wipes at 1-2 or 3% boss hp) refusing to give their absolute best to the group, specially when I know that for those people, going to a raiding spec would hardly jeopardize their ability to PVP or grind rep/gold/faction. They are making a choice and in my view is that raiding is not top priority for them so they should also be placed below top priority within their raiding groups.
Other than that, the main issue I see is pointed by Egolock in the opening post. Progress in raiding is hard, it takes many nights of wiping, frustration and the expense of virtual fortunes in consumables and repairs. For some of us it also provides that feeling of: “Yes!!!!! we made it!!!! we rock!!!!” you get when you finally down that boss. I know some of the “younger crowd” genuinly wants to see Prince or Netherspite going down, fair enough and I am happy to support that…. to a limited extent. It is true we have seen it many times, it is also true that, before that, we wiped endlessly at Moroes, Aran and “Netherwipe” so we can now run through them with our hands tied and our eyes closed. You have been raiding with a closeknit group of 10-15 friends/guildies for months, you understand each other, play well together and you have the same objectives or you would have fallen out somewhere on the way. Moving from that to a 25 man raid adding another 15 people from the outside worlds needs a completely different set of rules and the assurance that those new people is commited to walk the same path you did and are not just looking for a free ride through Kara to gear up at minimum expense.
…and I do not think that is hardcore, it is just that what was previously implied among a close and tight group, now it needs to be formalized to make sure everyone is on the same page.
December 22nd, 2007
Esoth pretty much summed up my own guild’s take on specs.
And yes, I come from very obviously a pretty hardcore guild. We raid 5 nights a week for 6 hours, expect you to bring flasks as in flasks and not elixers, a whole lot of food and mana pots, farm for yourself, 75% attendance, to show up pve spec, to have the best enchants and gems on your gear, to expect wipes on learning content (20 attempts on Vashj one night but that was just us doing overtime and not usually the norm), to expect our raid leader to yell a lot, and to take your repair bill like a man.
We were short locks. We recruited another two more who happened to be destros. I’ve always been skeptical of destro dps until Hjyal/BTish gear level but:
One was a fire destro who was only more than happy to pick up Curse of Elements for our mages and kept right behind me on the damage meters.
The other was full Shadowfury destro who couldn’t kill his Inner Demon at Leotheras. (I had to kill my Inner Demon once in my fire resist gear with my shoddy hit and 600ish? spell damage. I almost didn’t make it but I still did it.)
The further you progress the more obvious it will become that lolwell spec isn’t going to cut it and your tanks dying will notice. If you can make that spec viable, by all means. If we bring you along to raids and all you prove to us is that you specced into Stupid on the other hand, we’re gonna have to ask you and your fire spec sitout for A’lar.
Computer game or no, these are real people you’re raiding with behind the screen. When everyone has agreed to do their best do you gimp yourself outside of Outlands and hope that someone else will pick up the slack too?
December 24th, 2007
@ /emofire
That lock must have sucked. I can kill my Inner Demon without much trouble in my healing gear (holy priest w/o any dmg talents).
January 4th, 2008
I should be picking up our Kara group 2 soon as the raid leader. Granted we are not up to anything above kara yet I plan on using most of the “hardcore” strats here. If I feel that somone could be doing more dmg if they spec such and such way, then I will make them respec. If I feel a second enhancement shammy is over kill (I am running enhancement) then I will either make myself or the other shammy respec and regear for restro. same with druids and what not. also, if raiding starts at 630 and your ready around 700, then you forget to repair and you forget to bring pots your done, replaced, and scolded.
any thoughts?
-steve
January 5th, 2008
Yep, one thought. Make sure your folk think of your guild as a “hardcore” raiding guild — or at the least, that the raiding portion thinks of itself as hardcore. Because if you told me to respec such and such - ESPECIALLY if you don’t bother to discuss (meaning not just talk but listen) the various selections with me - you’d probably see me /gquit. I’m a priest, you’re a shammy, and you’re going to tell me how to spec ‘best’? maybe. Now you may think “good riddance”, but the guildmaster may think otherwise.
Actually, make sure your GM (and maybe the other officer) are ok with this plan first. Understand it’s a good plan, but only if the volunteers agree. And all guildmembers are VOLUNTEERS.
January 5th, 2008
I agree with Esoth. All that matters is actual performance, if you can make that spec work power to you. If you can’t, expect a tap on the shoulder. I’m mage classleader and the approach I take is to gently mock those who suck. It’s become kind of an in-joke, that if you suck you will be mocked. Currently our 15yo frosticle is kicking my fiery ass, so I’m very glad we gave him a chance to do his thing, his way
As said, no one intends to suck. Approached as an equal most people love talking about the characters and the choices they’ve made. Some leading questions can uncover the misunderstanding or difference in priorities. Ideally the latter never get into your group, but if they do, you have to apologise and ask them to make the choice. TBC raids simply do not tolerate anything less than 100% from 100% of the group.
We do have quite a strict ’slots’ policy. For example, one enhancement shaman, one elemental, one palatank, X total tanks etc. We handle that through careful recruiting and minimal role-respecs though, we never force anyone to change role although we will refuse someone permission to change role. If they want to respec so badly they leave, that’s up to them and they go with our best wishes.
February 27th, 2008
@Sweetpetal - Matticus’s idea of casual is relative to his game play style. If he used to raid for 25hrs a week for a year then yeah I would say hes now a casual raider. The whole “hardcore” discussion is relative. I could make the assumption you spend 1.5hrs a day cleaning, that comes out to be 10.5hrs a week, every week. You wouldn’t consider yourself a hardcore cleaner…well maybe you would, who knows…its all relative you you.
To me casual stops and hardcore begins when requirements are made on either the spec or attendance. I have been in a guild where theres no requirements to spec a certain way or even show up. Obviously theres the common courtesy of letting RLs know if you can’t make it but theres no penalty for missing. We are currently farming Kara, clearing but not farming Gruul and working our way thru ZA with random people that show up. Now if it were made mandatory to run this or that and specs are required then I would take us out of the casual group and to the hardcore.
February 27th, 2008
Doh, I even proof-read that post and still eff’d it up. The last phrase in the first paragraph is supposed to be, “…it’s all relative /to/ you.”
February 28th, 2008
@Bes
Proofreading is good, but they’ll always build bigger typos. *grins*
I think seeing the extremes is easy for everyone, but the line that separates them is in a different spot for everyone - based on the person speaking’s gaming history, as you said. =]
We need a mediumcore rating, I think.
February 28th, 2008
One could argue that the separator from casual to hardcore is a simple number. Got you thinking didn’t I? What could that number be you ask? Well actually I lied its two numbers…10 and 25.
Most guilds can pull off raiding a 10man on a casual raiding policy. I speak only of Kara atm because I only have about 30min worth of experience in ZA. Its even been mentioned here that spec’s don’t need to be enforced and 10 is a pretty small number of people to find, either in a guild or to pug, for a raid. Also mentioned is the level of gear needed, in Kara the gear needed is instance/crafted blues and the occasional crafted epic. Basically gear that is pretty easily obtained by yourself (I want to emphasize not quickly but easily). Lastly and probably most import is the quality of player, you can skimp in 10mans because there is a larger room for error/mediocre players in 10mans than 25man.
Once you step into a 25man, even Gruul, you need more people (obviously), spec’s that are more beneficial to raid than to individuals or at the very least a spec that maximizes the players potential to fill their role, gear is also a big factor as you can no longer get by on the “easy” stuff and like I mentioned earlier you need competent players able to adapt to sticky situations. With each of these factors there more and more details to have to take care of. So even tho a guild may only raid for 6hrs a week but they’re running 25mans consistently it takes a hardcore mentality to bring it all together.
Someone else may argue that only 6hrs raiding a week means they don’t raid hardcore because it’s a measly 6hrs but if the people are doing the work and being successful isn’t that hardcore even if they aren’t clearing raid instances or they have no desire to?
Desire…that could be another argument for casual vs. hardcore. This discussion is very similar to my Ancient Philosophy class in college. In asking what seems to be a simple question there is still no solid answer and as soon as you take one step towards an actual answer 3 more questions arise, all that have no true, factual answer. We could discuss and debate forever and still be no closer to an answer.
Good question to get people talking. I’m enjoying these priest forums. =)
@Ego
Thanks for reproofing after I post, where are you before I post? =P
February 29th, 2008
@Bes
Very excellent points. I love it.
And before you posted I was lounging in a hammock, swaying gently between two palm trees. A tanned youth bristling with muscles was massaging coconut oil into my back, and the sun was gloriously warm. All I could hear was the rushing whispers of incoming waves and the calls of a few far-away seabirds.
..well, in my head, maybe. In reality, I was probably wrapped up in three layers to keep myself warm, programming in a cubicle. *winks*