The Egotistical Priest
An irreverent and opinionated discussion of the many classes
in the World of Warcraft gaming universe.
EgoTank : Worthiness Precedes Reward
by Vonya
Guest Blogger today, as the title indicates. I demand more EgoTank!! (Seriously, folks, I’m trying to entice him to be a co-blogger. I’ve even offered to change the name of the blog, or send him care packages with cookies. The man’s a stone.)
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A simple phrase, it implies that one should strive to be worthy of the rewards, and the rewards will come as a result. First deserve, then desire. The entire PVE boss/loot structure is built around this, in that if you can’t kill the boss, you don’t get shit. You don’t get the gear first and promise to get good enough to kill the boss later.
The most common debate among all guilds at any level of raiding is “How do we distribute loot?”. Because no two people can really agree on the definition of “fair”, and if you beat a dead horse hard enough, the violent twitching may impart a morbid mockery of life to the desiccated husk. My guild’s leadership is currently making that bitch dance the Charleston.
What’s “fair”? How do you decide which healer gets that nice healing mace? Which tank should get dibs on that sweet armor? Which DPSer would get the most mileage out of that insane trinket? Who should the tier whatever token go to first? DKP? Zero-sum? EP/GP? Loot council?? /random???
Say you have four healers, Bob, Jane, Shirley and Mitch.
Bob has been in the guild for a long time, almost since the beginning. He’s become bitter and disillusioned as of late, and while he’s a pretty decent healer, he doesn’t tend to show up very often anymore, and usually wants to bring one of his alts to any content that’s on farm status. He’s recently stopped bidding his Brownie Points for minor upgrades, and has decided to save them all for Paddington’s Pummeler of Prestidigitation, that awesome healy mace that drops from the boss the guild has just recently started downing. Coincidentally, Paddington’s Pummeler of Prestidigitation would put Bob’s +healing just high enough to meet the requirements to apply to <Dinosaur>, one of the server’s top raiding guilds. Bob has saved up 50 Brownie Points.
Jane has been around longer than Bob, and is in fact a founding member of the guild and an officer. Ask any 3 random people in the guild what they thought of Jane, and 2 of them would probably say “she’s a nice enough person, but she sucks at healing”. Everyone knows it, everyone but Jane. Jane is convinced that she’s a great healer. Even though she consistently fails to heal the tank in time (”I was alllmost done casting!”), even though she doesn’t really understand any of the healing classes (”Paladins don’t need spell crit!”), even though she can’t seem to grasp the simplest strategies for content that she’s been going to for months (”I’ll just heal the MT on Aran”), even though she’s consistently out of mana long before any other caster due to her habit of spamming the most inefficient heal she has, even though she’s personally responsible for more wipes than Charmin, she still thinks he’s a mighty fine healer and a valuable asset to the raid team. Jane has recently voiced concerns to the guildmaster (her husband) that she doesn’t think she’s getting her fair share of loot. Everyone knows from past experience that Jane will throw a fit if she doesn’t get a piece of loot that she really wants when it drops. Because she’ll bid on any item that seems like it might be useful to her at some point, Jane only has 10 Brownie Points.
Shirley hasn’t been around as long as Bob or Jane, but most would agree that she’s carried them through months of progression. She researches her class, has alot of experience as a healer, and never has a problem picking up new strategies or adapting to changing situations. She’ll go to any lengths to get the upgrades she needs to do her job even better, whether it be from quests, heroics, professions, PvP, or spending her Brownie Points. She’s not terribly social with most of the guild, but she’s friendly enough, and her name is synonymous with “awesome healer”. She doesn’t make it to every raid due to real life obligations, but she makes it to most of them, and everyone breathes a sigh of relief when they see “Shirley has joined the raid.” One thing’s for sure: Shirley is a permanent fixture on the roster, and a vital member of the raid team. Because she’ll spend her points on an upgrade regardless of which slot it’s for or how big it is, Shirley only has 30 Brownie Points.
Mitch is a new member of the guild. He’s still a bit undergeared, but has thus far proven that he really knows his stuff. He claims to have been a healer in <Stegosaurus>, the top raiding guild for the other faction, but left due to irreconcilable differences with the leadership. He’s had no problem adapting to the strategies that were different from what he was used to, and even though he’s a bit of a braggart, everyone likes him well enough. A few have voiced concerns that he may just be using the guild to gear up so he can apply to <Dinosaur>, but who can really tell? Because the Brownie Point System doesn’t require Mitch to spend points on uncontested drops, he has saved up 50 Brownie Points while still getting upgrades.
One fateful night, while all four healers are present, Paddington’s Pummeler of Prestidigitation drops. Every healer needs it, every healer wants it, but which one really deserves it? What’s best for the raid team as a whole? Under the Brownie Points System, since Bob and Mitch have the same number of points, a best 2 out of 3 /random 1-1337 is the deciding factor. Jane thinks she deserves it the most since she’s been around the longest, and it’ll surely be a drama explosion if she doesn’t get it. Bob thinks he deserves it more than Mitch since he’s been around way longer. Half the raid is whispering the raid leader that Shirley should get it regardless of points, because she’s the best, most reliable healer they have. Mitch doesn’t really care and just wants to move on, but the other half of the raid thinks Mitch should have a fair shot, because some don’t want a precedent of “seniority > points” set, and other’s don’t want a precedent of “ability and dedication > everything else” set
What’s “fair”? Older members tend to think it’s more fair for them to have first shot, since they’ve “done all the work”. Newer members tend to think the definition of fair is that everyone has an equal shot at loot that drops, regardless of how many uncontested upgrades they’ve picked up, because the raid couldn’t have happened without them to fill the slots. Those “core” members who tend to carry the raid on their shoulders usually think they should have first shot, because they are what enables the raid to progress and succeed consistently. The raid leaders may think that “fair” is whatever results in the least amount of bitching and moaning. One person’s definition of “fair” is another person’s definition of “selfish” and another person’s definition of “favoritism” and another person’s definition of “overly complicated” and another person’s definition of “pandering”.
It happens with every keynote item that drops. Take the Aldori Legacy Defender, which dropped on my guild’s first Gruul kill. We were using /random for loot, because we didn’t have a loot system in place for the 25 man raids yet. 2 of 3 tanks rolled, and I rolled the lowest. But an “executive decision” was made and I got the shield anyway. Not because I threatened to /gquit, not because I rubbed elbows with the leadership, not because I was more popular. All I did was /random. It was other raiders who stepped up and said it’d be outright wrong for it to go to anyone else. It was the raid leader who made the decision to send the shield to me instead. Why? Because I’d earned it through being the spearhead of the raid’s progression for months. I’d earned the raid’s respect, and I’d earned my place as the de facto Main Tank.
I earned my place when the guild needed a Warrior, and rather than have someone play an alt they didn’t enjoy to fill that void, I took my old Warrior from level 65 in AH greens to 70 and ready to tank Karazhan inside of two weeks by running 3+ instances a day with my crew, staying up late to PUG for more gear, and spending thousands of my own gold to powerlevel professions and buy expensive gems.
I earned my place by re-thinking my techniques and teaching myself how to tank all over again to compensate for our very high damage, high threat DPS team, putting out far more threat than any other tank and allowing them to bring the pain, rather than expecting them to hold everything back for me.
I earned my place when we were short on tanks, and I spent doubletime tanking for two teams on two different characters just so both teams could have their Karazhan run and continue to gear up, saying nothing when some others complained they were tired at the 4 hour mark.
I earned my place when I passed on every contested drop while playing my alternate tank, and when I heard that some thought I was greedy for bringing two characters to Karazhan, I didn’t say anything or make a fuss. I just kept doing my job to keep the teams running.
I earned my place by memorizing every pull and every nuance of every boss fight so that I could mark and pull and mark and pull without having to stop and think about it, helping to cut our Karazhan clear time from >10 hours to <5 hours.
I earned my place by teaching the other tanks everything I could, and off tanking for them so they could get experience in an MT role.
I earned my place by attending EVERY raid that I was needed on, whether I was tired, in a bad mood, didn’t like working with someone attending that particular raid, or just didn’t feel like it that night.
I continue to earn my place with consistently high performance, attendance, and dedication.
I don’t do these things to curry favor with my raid leader or for recognition or so I can play the martyr later. I do them because I want to be the best damned tank I can be. To set the bar as high as I can to encourage others to get their shit together and not be satisfied with “acceptably average”. Because I want to see my guild advance further than they ever thought they would.
I earned my place and any predilection that goes with it, as did every other member of my raid team who goes above and beyond expectations. If the loot rules, whatever they may be at the time, are bent to strengthen the raid by strengthening high performance players, I refuse to listen to any howls of “that’s not fair”. We earned our place, and if someone wants to take it by out tanking, out healing, out DPSing and out raiding us, they’re welcome to try.
That’s my definition of “fair”.
January 15th, 2008
Wow!
I have to say I agree completely with this topic. I’m a main tank of my guild and I feel the same way. Loot should be earned by those who strive unselflessly to better thier guild and themselves. All loot systems are can be both “fair” and “unfair”. I’ve seen and experienced them all and I know how they are used unfairly.
Great article, this is one post I will put on my guild’s website for everyone to read just so they can understand that loot distribution is not always black and white.
Good Job and grats on the shield and the knowledge that your guild truly appreciates the work you do for them and yourself.
Brunnor of Gorgonnash ( Horde )
January 15th, 2008
You sound like a great guy. I agree you deserve loot and it definitely sounds like it is in the best short-term interest of your guild to gear you as fast as possible. After all, the main tank is the lynchpin of the entire raid.
However, I believe worthiness is an insufficiently accurate metric to distribute loot by in a successful community.
What happens if you fall deathly ill? I sincerely hope you don’t, but if you did, all the gear poured into your toon is temporarily lost to the guild. Raid progress may effectively halt until you return. Another raider might fairly wonder when his MT will get frustrated wiping with this bunch of noobs and join .
What happens if there are two heroes one day? Say there’s a lapse of healing, you do a superhuman job staying alive for 30 seconds but eventually die and an OT saves the day? Do you /roll? What happens when your entire raid has been pushing 110%? I promise you there is no room for Jane in SSC/TK.
How are poorly geared DPSers supposed to prove they deserve loot? Those with better gear can slack off and still beat them on meters. What stops the mage classlead, who contributes a lot to the community and also rocks the dps, from taking every ’special’ item first?
How about the tokens? Warriors share tokens with druids. If the tanking heroes always take the tokens, how will they ever gear up? It’s much harder for healers to be heroes as healing is a team effort. DPS have the same problem but worse. Say your best spooky already has threat issues, should he be loot starved for the good of the raid?
Lastly, why did you feel the need to illustrate your worthiness at such length? I’m not arguing with those facts, tbh it sounds like you personally deserve to be in MH. If it takes you 11 paragraphs without another warrior chiming in with his $0.02, rebutting your points and saying “me too!”, how do you expect to resolve a loot decision quickly?
IMNSHO, worthiness cannot be measured accurately enough to function in a successful community. Moreover, concentrating loot on high performers makes your guild vulnerable and inevitably causes drama.
The only acceptable solution is smoothed /random, imho. That is, a system like DKP which allocates loot based on time spent in raid versus loots taken. Ideally one which only allows oldsters a 1-3 loot advantage over newbies, and has some provision to help out classes which don’t benefit much from tier loot.
Background: I’m lucky enough to have an entire community of Shirleys. Everyone has badge/Kara/S3 gear at minimum. We just killed Vashj, but we only raid 10 hours a week spread over three nights (25man, Kara is optional). We’re not elite by any stretch, however we are skilled players and most importantly we don’t waste effort fighting each other. We’ve had several recruits specifically state in their applications they were attracted by our strict, clear, evenhanded rules.
I don’t mean to boast, but to say that this is possible, even on Alliance! In such a situation, attempting to pick out those who deserve loot most is impossible. Seventh Flight forever!
January 15th, 2008
para 3: “and join ((Dinosaur))”. Doh.
January 15th, 2008
A perfect example of this played out last night in Kara. One of our officers is always pounding the forums with “Hey you guys need to gear up so we can do more content.” Thats 100% fine, and I’m glad that someone cares enough to push us to get to our goals.
Nethersprite/Prince cleanup last night. 1 shot Nethersprite, a pair of healing cloth pants drops - no one rolls but me (a relatively new shadowpriest - I went shadow about 6 months ago) and our main shadowpriest who now wants to put together a healing set. Fine, no big deal. I loose the roll, he gets the nice healing pants.
Now, our shadowpriest has been going on and on how he dreams of the mindblade from Prince, and EVERYONE knows it. Of course, we get to prince and for the first time in our guild - the mindblade drops and the T4 head piece for priests drop as well. We have a /roll system right now - but the guild almost outright just gave it to our shadowpriest because everyone knows he wants it. A mage and I mentioned we wouldnt mind to roll on it. (the Mage and the shadowpriest has around 300-350 more spell damage than I do) So we all roll. I roll a 71 out of 1000. lolz. The mage rolls a 270 and the shadowpriest rolls a 220. ouch. The mage was REALLY nice, and actually wanted to give the shadowpriest the blade and so he finally got his blade.
We then roll on the T4 helm - again I loose the roll. The winner replaces an already epic helm with the T4 epic helm. I still have a dungeon set blue helm.
So overall, how did our guild get better? That mindblade would have given me about 100 more +damage (130+ if you count offhand) and put me in a great position to do more damage. The helm would have helped just as much. So now, an already geared Shadowpriest got one of the best weapons in the game, and got some really nice healing pants- and an already good healer got a very minor upgrade. Did the shadowpriest deserve it? He isnt on every guild run, doesnt help everyone out and have the best strategy and knowledge, etc. I know he wanted it, because he always told everyone that would listen. So is that what I should do? Whine about a particular piece of loot so that people will defer to me when it finally drops? Or should a piece of loot go to whoever it will benefit the most, helping progression, helping the guild?
That’s a tough one to swallow.
January 15th, 2008
I think we may be losing the focus here. The intent of the post, in my opinion was that any loot system can be fair. Its when the cons of the system are exploited is when the system breaks down. All loot systems try to disperse loot fairly, but in the end we all hope that people who recieve loot are truly deserving of it.
“Worthiness precedes reward” The idea I think is that a person getting a piece of loot deserved it not because he whined about it the most but because it benefits the guild/raid as a whole.
January 15th, 2008
My Guild are really concentrating on progression so we give Priority to our main Tanks & Healers. As a Shadowpriest I’ve missed out on T4 about 6 times now, and T5 Shoulders 2 times now but I don’t have a problem with it because it’s for the good of the Guild. I know that my chances of T4 or T5 are limited because I’m rolling against Warrior tanks, Priest Healers, Druid tanks, and Druid Healers. What bothers me though is all of the drama that occurs when a Paladin tank/healer or Shaman healer get priority with their T4/T5.
January 15th, 2008
Great comments all around.
No area creates more guild drama that loot distribution. In my experience, most players favor a system that will benefit their characters in the long run. That’s human nature, and that’s perfectly fine. EgoTank already mentioned the “seniority > points” and the “ability and dedication > everything else” camps, and it’s clear which one he prefers. After all, he seems to have the “ability and dedication” part down pat (to his credit).
The guild bent some rules and gave him the shield. Some people were upset with this I’m sure, whether they expressed those feelings or not. In Griff’s case, the rules weren’t bent and he doesn’t get the gear that would have certainly helped him. The reasoning here is “this gear will help me, and therefor the guild, the most - so I should get it”. Regardless of the scenario, someone will be upset AND have a valid, logical argument they can use justify why the distribution should have been in their favor. This spells disaster for many guilds.
The solution? Beats me. I do believe that a loot plan should be tailored to the group instead of forcing the group into something it’s not comfortable with. However, once a plan is agreed upon, stick to it. The long term consistency of a clear gear plan can do wonders for a guild. If officers are bending the rules often (or even one time as some believe), it’s probably time to look at a new system.
January 15th, 2008
EgoTank, I liked your article on being ready for Kara, but I’m going to have to dissagree with you on this one. I am of course making an assumption first. I’m going to assume that, based on your personal story, you’re saying that Shirley should have had the loot rules bent for her since she most “deserved” the uber loot. I would dissagree at this point. (If my assumption is wrong, sorry)
I think that “fair” is going by whatever system is being used at the time. If someone thinks the system isn’t fair or is giving others too much of an advantage, they should say so. The time to make such a decision is not when that piece of loot drops. In your hypothetical situation, I believe that both Bob and Mitch have equal right to the loot since they both have 50 points. If they both want to spend all their points that they have earned, then so be it. According to that guild, “worthiness” is measured in Brownie Points. They are earned ahed of time and are to be used when loot dropps.
This in mind, I would have awarded the shield to the warrior who won the roll in your situation. I know you’re telling us that you didn’t ask for him to yield it to you. I’m not saying that you did. If he yielded to you because he thought you deserved it, that’s his perrogative. After it’s already been decided that the loot will be rolled for since you didn’t have a loot system set up for 25-mans yet, then the one who wins the roll gets the loot. I’d be a bit put out if I was told that I could roll on something, won it, and then was told, “Hey the roll didn’t come out how we would have liked so we’re going to give the loot to the other person”. That to me is a slap in the face. That’s basically the raid leader saying that they’re fair only when it’s convenient and in my opinion, that’s not how fair works.
Now I’m not saying you don’t sound like you’ve been a great asset to your guild. If even half the stuff up there is true, you have been an enormous help. But that doesn’t change my opinion that stating 8 different reasons of how you earned the loot just makes the article sound like it was simply a justification written as a response to the people who don’t think it was a fair decision.
January 15th, 2008
Another great post by EgoTank (Vonya, I agree: Keep sending the man cookies!!). I devoutly hope I’m not still the GM when we start doing Kara: Just reading about Bob, Jane, Shirley and Mitch gave me a headache.
So far, we’ve survived on simple greed & need rolls. And generally in a 5-man, that works; after all, we can always sub in alts and do it again. But 10-man raids for a small guild simply aren’t going to allow for that. And that’s one of those things I know we’ll struggle with, despite the fact we’re all friends.
January 15th, 2008
This sure was an interesting article. I can’t even tell you how many pugs my guild has geared up with Kara gear using /random. I’m not sure if it’s any better or worse to gear pugs or to give preference to certain classes tbh. Both elicit such strong emotions.
I’ve seen this same topic comes up time and time again and this is how I have generally seen it progress (not for every one but for most it can happen in a matter of weeks or a couple of months):
1. Guilds want to gear up players so certain players get preference (understandable).
2. Some members get bitter over time about not getting gear so /gquit or cause drama so others quit.
3. The players getting gear preference quickly get tired of being asked every waking moment for help (thus the rallying cry of “hey wait what did we give you the gear for”).
4. The players getting gear /gquit because they are sick of it and/or have been recruited by (Dinosaur) because they are now really well geared
5. Raid falls apart (tremendous bitterness all around)
6. Guild disbands
Btw feel free to substitute “Guild gears up pugs who never come back” for number 1 above.
It sure would be nice if there was a simple “hey you are an 8 out of 10 on the awesomeness meter. You get this piece with no ill will”. I have yet to see it but would love to be able to someday. Unfortunately too many people I have been around have been loot whores to make this work.
January 15th, 2008
If only it were always as simple as I try to make it sound XD
Of course, it’s seldom obvious who the “most deserving” is. That’s when the loot system comes in…interesting thing about the Shirleys is that they tend to see the bigger picture, and aren’t going to make a fuss if they don’t personally get the drop, as long as it goes to -someone- who carries their weight. What the Shirleys -don’t- like is seeing useful gear go to people who drag their ass and make half the effort before it goes to anyone else just because an arbitrary number said it was their “turn”. You know the type…they roll up in your raid “ready to go” wearing AH greens, green gems, subpar or even no enchants, no consumeables, and talk constantly about the drops they want. And then to see them continue to perform poorly even if they’re picking up gear left and right and getting tips from everyone and their dog…
I could list a hundred “He/She earned their place by –” for a number of my guild mates. Not as justification for breaking the loot rules, but as justification for not feeling sympathy for someone who gets “screwed over” when they’re so bad/lazy/undependable that it was felt the rule -should- be broken for the good of the raid team (subtle difference). But my definition of “fair” is some others’ definition of “elitism”…their definition of “fair” tends to be my definition of “kindergarten”. I can accept that, I just don’t want them dragging my raid team down XD
Lets hope that in the next expansion or the next Big Game, some brave developer will solve our problems for us by abandoning the tired old concept of random loot drops entirely, so we can finally bury this horse.
January 15th, 2008
Our guild has been in Kara for slightly over a month now and since the beginning, we have adopted the principle that first useful item will be /random rolled on and from then onwards, others will get preference over that person, i.e. he won’t be rolling for any other item unless he is the only one who can use it or all others from the same bracket have got a drop as well for that run.
Maybe it’s the fact that most of us are adults and we are fairly casual guild, I haven’t had anyone come up to me and complain, except for one night when a rather newer recruit ‘accidentally’ missed my instructions on vent and rolled on an item despite winning one earlier.
January 16th, 2008
Ah loot distribution…the thorn in ever raid leader and guild master’s side.
My personal experience stems from having brought my guild from karazhan as newbies in blues @ 70, to 4/6 and 1/4 in SSC/TK in roughly 3 months (we did 3 weeks of SSC/TK to be where we are now).
That background set, let me say that rolls are fantastic in 10 man. DKP in that size of raid is, imo, a waste of time. Most raids have only 1 of each class at Karazhan/Zul’Aman level and rolls typically lead to no drama. I may be lucky in that I have no lootwhores in the guild; at least, in 3 months of raiding no-one has appeared - but in Kara/ZA, rolls ftw.
25 man content….well, Gruul we handled with rolling too, with 0 complaints. But yes, we worked via “preference” on tokens for tanks/healers, and although we never forced a pass, we did try to guide loot (based on the maths behind classes - eg. spell crit for paladins). Maybe we were wrong there, but again, no complaints.
Recently (Monday in fact) we downed Morogrim and Karathress, both first nights for both. This was fantastic
but the loot at the end on Karathress soured the raid.
Our shaman had been waiting for his T5 (Xsevilinside, Frostwhisper EU, Horde). Since Karazhan he had received 0 items, ever, due to previous raiding. All he needs until BT/MH is 4/5 T5 and a ring. So when his T5 legs dropped…..I gave him them. 100% raid attendance, wiping in kara till it was learnt…he earned them imo.
But the fact is, once you make a judgement call, its not longer a “fair” system, imo. Today (2 days later) the DKP rules I hoped never to use have been written and the system goes live today.
Loot will cause issues. No matter HOW good your people. Mine never complained, none have since Monday, but I know it was time to move to a more ordered system, even with its flaws.
Hope this wall of text didn’t annoy anyone, I wanted to say it but if its too long delete it or w/e ^^.
Always enjoy the blog posts Mr. Egotank sir =)
Wraeth
GM guild
Frostwhisper PVP EU Realm
Horde
January 16th, 2008
Interesting post, we use suicide kings loot methodology, and it’s worked out pretty well for us. The premise is if you get a drop, you suicide to the bottom of the list. You overtake people on the list by attending raids and them not. We observe main tank gearing, in order to make a raid more viable.
We’ve always used /roll in 10 person raids, except for main tanks. We let people decide what they wanted to roll on when it makes sense (loot council) i.e. Before 2.3 badge rewards, balance druid gear was non existant, so they should retain the right to roll; should dps warriors roll vs. rogues for dps leather gear? etc.
One of the keystones of main tank gearing is the tanks have to know the itemization of gear available. None of the warrior tanks have ever rolled on the t4 pants. It is understood that they are a marginal side grade to curator’s wrynn’s, and the set bonus is kind of a joke. Thus, it opens the token drops for priests, dps warriors and druids. We expect the tanks be busy in heroics and kara, the badge rewards are just so good for us. Arguably, the badge gear is better than some of the t5 pieces. Dont believe me? go to http://www.tankspot.com and look at Berg’s list; or go to http://www.tankingtips.com and read Vene’s analysis. If your tanks don’t know about these sites from highly respected warrior tanks, then they are missing out on so much valuable insight.
Loot is simple… there is no room for gear greed. Sometimes loot doesn’t make sense, giving an epic drop to someone who has accrued more dkp or is on top of a suicide list, but is an underplayed toon, simply happens. It is the integrity of your loot methodology that you cannot compromise, IMO that leads to even more drama.
Interesting discussion, thanks,
fubs
exodar
January 16th, 2008
@Griff: The fact that it’s a bigger upgrade for you might actually be a point against you. How did the other person end up with better gear than you? Were they working their ass off, going to endless heroics for marginal upgrades? Have they been going to raids endlessly without getting this recent drop, and you just appeared on the raiding scene? If that’s the case, you do not deserve the item even though you just have a dungeon blue. However, it may be the case that you went to all of the same runs as them, they outrolled you on the item that is currently their epic helm a long time ago, and now this new item is up. If that’s the case, I would say you should be given the item. But my point is, bigger upgrade != more deserved. Normally it’s the opposite!
Here’s another extreme example: HunterA has ran dungeons and heroics so many times that he’s exalted with every faction. He’s run Karazhan so many times that he has every item he could ever want from there and then some, and doesn’t even have anything left to buy with badges. He’s been doing Gruul and Mag, and was there as the raid wiped and learned their way through the first few bosses in SSC/TK. HunterB is new to the scene, and plays fairly well, but his best trinket is that blue one you get from a quest in Hellfire Peninsula. Well they just downed Leotheras for the first time, the Tsunami Talisman dropped, and miraculously the only two people interested are these two hunters. Clearly HunterB has the bigger upgrade. But any raid leader that gives it to him for this reason should be shot.
Also, and this has been mentioned by EgoTank, not every player in your raid is probably maximizing the benefit of their gear. Our raids probably have about 5-10 people who make full use of their gear, and any upgrade will show positive returns on raid performance. There are others that do poorly with good gear and will continue to do poorly with slightly better gear. Skill is still greater than gear, but skill can maximize gear. The opposite is not true.
One final comment: I really hate it when someone says they want to do boss X to get “their” item Z. Just shows what you’re really after.
January 16th, 2008
—If the loot rules, whatever they may be at the time, are bent to strengthen the raid by strengthening high performance players, I refuse to listen to any howls of “that’s not fair”.—
Well you better start listening as there is no more single factor that leads to the morale decline of a raiding guild or alliance than suddenly changing the loot rules during the middle of the raid.
If you walk into an instance and you have a pre defined loot system, whether it be random or some form of DKP, you stick to it for good or bad for the duration of the raid. Sure some people may have cried out during your case but you can bet there’s the whole bunch of people that didn’t say anything at the time and now they’re talking amongst themselves or directly to the leadership.
By breaking the rules you have introduced instability and uncertainty for future raids. What sort of message do you think it sends for future raiders knowing that even if they have worked hard for points or they only need lucky roll to get an item, they can then face the prospect of having it ripped off them by the raid lead.
Now im not doubting that you may well have been more deserving of the item than others and if that’s truly the case then your guild should work on a system that not only reflects attendance but also maybe a measure of value. Put the loot rules to a vote. Those that strongly disagree have their own decision to make, to work under the new system or move on.
January 16th, 2008
Esoth… very valid argument. One of the officers in my guild said it the best, “you can’t enchant skill.”
January 16th, 2008
I’ve been in a few different guilds now with various types of loot systems. To this day my favorite was a Loot Council we set up back in EQ, this was when DKP was still in it’s infinancy. Everyone that wanted an item sent a link to one person on the Loot Council with the item they would be upgrading. We could then tell who would get the largest use out of this item. The council was made up of an officer, a class leader, and a random member from the guild. Class leaders were often called in to justify the value of certain upgrades. To this day I feel it was the “fairest” system over all for the progress as our guild as a whole. I understand many people didn’t get items that felt they should, and since we were the top raiding guild on our server our members had no where else to go. (This is before char transfers).
Now I’m in a casual guild made up of mostly friends that I have known since High School. We have long favored a /random loot system because we pass to each other if we know someone needs/wants something really bad. We have recently progressed to 25 man raids and so we have some people we do not know IRL. They are aware that unless something should obviously go to someone else it’s /random. The only exceptions being is if someone has recently recieved alot of items or it would greatly benefit our raid.
See we can deck out our 2 main tanks because we know them IRL. Our top 4 healers, all friends IRL. So we don’t fear someone gearing up and leaving us. It makes loot alot easier.
Personally I am at the point were my only upgrades are the ZA helm, T5 pants, and 1 trinket that I sort of want. In my guilds loot system I will more than likely still have to /random for those 3 items. Even if I don’t see them for 3 months.
January 17th, 2008
Maybe it’s the fact that most of us are adults and we are fairly casual guild, I haven’t had anyone come up to me and complain, except for one night when a rather newer recruit ‘accidentally’ missed my instructions on vent and rolled on an item despite winning one earlier.
http://illidan.ohgo.com/
January 17th, 2008
EgoTank sez >
Yep, sucks to see gear wasted. I would say the best way to deal with this is to not have those ppl in your comm at all. Most loot systems mean they have to raid for about a month before they stand a chance at a contested item, by then you should know if they’re pulling their weight. If they aren’t, goodbye is the only acceptable answer.
Unfortunately in a new guild, sometimes you have to tolerate noobs to get a raid off the ground at all. I don’t know how ppl do it tbh, you take an unbelievable amount of punishment before your team levels out. Just for example, kicking founders is never easy…
It’s interesting reading everyone else’s POV. I’m probably one of the furthest advanced, although I see my comm as fairly casual still. My attitude probably comes across as pretty elitist, but as you say EgoTank, what seems elitist in easy content becomes mandatory later on.
+1 to nuking the antiquated random drop system. We had extremely bad luck with warrior T2 which held back our Naxx effort until it was too late
@Esoth: bigger upgrade != more deserved. QFT.
January 17th, 2008
arrrrrrgh. I fail. The quote was:
What the Shirleys -don’t- like is seeing useful gear go to people who drag their ass and make half the effort before it goes to anyone else just because an arbitrary number said it was their “turn”
January 18th, 2008
There were a lot of comments here and I’ll admit to not reading them all, so I may just end up echoing what others (like Squirrelz and Thunder, at the least) have said. But I’m not that impressed with the attitude in this article. If your point is merely that gear should go to the most worthy, well, that’s fine. But if your point is that your raid was correct in giving you that shield after you lost the roll, then I don’t think I can disagree more vehemently. If it is so important to you that the people who busted their ass to get where they are get the gear, that those who are _worthy_ get it, then you need to be in a guild with a loot system that accomplishes this (almost certainly a loot council). If your guild agrees with you, then they need to change their loot system. But you do this ahead of time, not in the middle of a raid. By joining a guild, by accepting a position in a raid, you agreed to abide by the current rules. You buy into the system you have, and if that system says the gear goes to the less worthy player, then you have to suck it up. And you damn better well listen to anyone who complains about the rules being bent, because they are the ones with the legitimate grievance.
It is completely inappropriate to have a set of rules, that everyone has agreed to and is expected to follow, and then renege on them because you suddenly realize those rules don’t benefit the person you want them to benefit. If that hypothetical mace drops, and the guild realizes that Shirley should get it but their system fails to deliver it to her, they can change the rules. But not right there, at a whim. A guild is a social contract. That contract can only be changed after you allow everyone who has agreed to the current contract the opportunity to evaluate whether or not they wish to buy into the new one.
January 24th, 2008
We always use a master looter and our guild assigns priority of loot in this way: We try to get one toon geared as well as possible before moving on to the next one. Obviously this all depends a lot on who’s there at the time and what happens to drop. But if three toons can benefit from an item that drops, it will go to the currently designated ‘buildup’ toon of that class, assuming he/or she wants it.
Doing it this way ensures that we have a core group of very well geared players. The primary benefit of this system is that it becomes much easier to incorporate two to four undergeared players into a Kara group, without fear of constant wipes, if the core group has great gear. Aside from that, we, meaning the guild leadership, also believe that the people who have been doing the work week in and week out work deserve to be rewarded.
When new guild members are involved it has the potential to get a bit dicey, particularly if a long-time member loses out to a new one. But the philosophy to which we strive to adhere would make Spock proud: The good of the many outweighs the good of the one.
January 30th, 2008
We use DKP for kara loot. The reason is obvious if you are a dpser, or you are one of 4 or 5 in your class in kara that night. Especially given the ranks of senority. Anyway our loot system is simple. First master loot. Every time a boss is downed people get a point. People in the raid that are not in kara (but available for swapping) gets a point too, for wasting their time. When two or more people want the loot, they bid in incriments like Ebay. Its incredibly simple and mostly fair. We have a core of people who always show up and are well geared, and we have people who don’t show up all the time but still have some loot. In reality, this is the way it works for me. The first time we downed prince, the T4 helm token dropped for dps. This was an upgrade for all of us. But the lock and other hunter are both better and have been around longer than me. I passed. It wouldn’t be right to bid for them, my way of thinking. If there was a newb hunter and we got prince down despite it, then that newb would only have a shot if the other more experienced hunters/mages/locks didn’t need it, because they have way more points. A random system probably works fine for people who’s class are under-represented like warriors and rogues (for us), but no hunters (like me).