The Egotistical Priest
An irreverent and opinionated discussion of the many classes
in the World of Warcraft gaming universe.
Shatter : The “Talk”
by Vonya
Guest post today from Shatter, kicking off my Tuesday hiatus for classes starting this semester.
From here till finals, every Tuesday post will either be done by my friends taking pity on me, or won’t happen at all. Many many thanks to Shatter for kicking this off for me, he pulled me out of a tough spot since I didn’t have time to write one today.
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If you are an officer in any guild, there will come a time when you are forced to have “The Talk” with someone. It is a very difficult thing to decide who becomes the person who has “The Talk” with the member of your group that needs it or even, how to approach the topic at all. Some people simply cannot take criticism, and to receive it akin to a deathblow. Some people simply cannot take a “you could improve” no matter how soft you cushion the blow, and then there are those who simply will not unless you smash them in the face with your concerns.
So what is the magical way to deal with a concern in the guild?
In short, there isn’t one.
Tact is perhaps the safest route to take, but it is one that we must use with caution. As said, if we over inflate how tactful we are, then it can lead to the discussion seeming like cotton candy, while if we use too little we come off as a brazen bastard. For all intents and purposes, we will assume that I most often act like a brazen bastard. If a problem is there, I move to correct it directly. No frills, no fancy wording. “1+1 = 2″. Get it? Got it? Good!
But even I know when that isn’t going to work. Paper thin-skin is a very dangerous thing to deal with, especially when the most someone has to do to get away from a situation in WoW is simply typing /gquit. From a raiding perspective, this is most often the risk run when dealing with someone’s playing ability. Player Ability is far more important than Player Gear, as the latter can be enhanced by simply sitting on /follow.
The Golden Rules that I have, if they me called that, are few and far between. But if you wish to at the very least exonerate yourself of being blamed for being too blunt, then attempt the following things:
1. State that they are a valued member of the team. – This instantly lets them know that you are not simply picking at them; you are attempting to fine tune, not replace an instrument that is in your choir.
2. Be confident in what you’re saying; assertive, not aggressive - More than likely, the person is going to try to bitch their way out of it, first. Simply remind them that if you did not care you would not be having this conversation at all. You want them to do better, for both themselves and the group.
3. Keep reminding them this is a group effort. – One of the most important things to do is remind your player that they are helping everyone. This isn’t about them not being bad, this is about them not being as good as they could be.
4. Thank them for all they’ve done. – Carrot and the stick. Remind them when all is said and done, that you do realize how much they have worked (if they have). Tell them that if they need help, you would be glad to do it. You’re opening avenues here, not closing them.
Granted, this list is for someone who is pretty open to change. If the person becomes hostile instantly, smack them in the mouth and tell them to sit the hell down. While this may seem a bit brash, it works at times. Stereotypical as it may seem, more often than not if you are dealing with a TANK or MELEE DPS, they generally have more of a competitive nature that anything less than full assertiveness will not break through. Remind them of your position if things get heated.
But the most important thing is making sure that your 25-Man Team doesn’t become a 24-man by chasing a member off. It’s very difficult to do, but cutting off one’s nose to spite their face is never the best option. So long as you can find a way to channel your efforts into something positive, hopefully the problematic member of the guild will see there is more at stake than their own ego and come around to see things your way.
If not, well. Somethings were simply not meant to be.
January 9th, 2008
Great post Shatter. When I started playing WoW I was… well, really quite damn offensive sometimes. I’ve really been working on it though, esp since becoming mage lead. What really helps me is to remember I’m not delivering /smackdown or enlightening a noob. Instead I act a little dumb and just have a conversation, asking questions about relevant factors and their understanding of them. Usually either a misunderstanding comes out or they just hadn’t considered it. In the former case I like to direct them to a source so they don’t have to take my word for it. At this point, even if they haven’t come round yet, I leave them for a while. If they’re about to change their mind, they may feel dumb, and feeling dumb is best done in privacy.
That works well for mid-level topics, like which spec to use. Value judgements like how much to DPS at Leo I’m a bit more assertive about, there is no ‘right answer’ so I have to rely on their respect for me and their belief that I would only ask them to reduce DPS if it is 100% for the best. I ask, respectfully and highlighting the benefits, and fortunately have not had to get the stick yet during my short tenure
How would you deal with a friend who is a complete noob, but doesn’t know it? He doesn’t raid with you, it just makes you cry a little to watch him play.
January 9th, 2008
“How would you deal with a friend who is a complete noob, but doesn’t know it? He doesn’t raid with you, it just makes you cry a little to watch him play.”
Depends how close of a friend he is. My flatmate and I both started playing the game at the same time and with some constant ‘constructive criticism’ he’s improved a lot and now we’re both at Gruul level and both doing well. So basicly if they’re a close friend just be as harsh as you like, it’s fun.
January 9th, 2008
“How would you deal with a friend who is a complete noob, but doesn’t know it? He doesn’t raid with you, it just makes you cry a little to watch him play.”
I had this problem in a PUG through Shadow Labs not too long ago. This guy wasn’t a friend, just another warlock picked up along the way. His answer to every mob in the instance was Fear, Fear, Fear. That obviously doesn’t work so well in any instance. The party leader eventually had to give him the ol’ heave-ho because we had wiped 3 times before clearing the first room due to his feared monster aggroing everything around us.
But I agree with your post, Shatter. Tact should always be the first method. Soften the blow to their ego by pointing to sources, either online or through damage meter reports of similarly specced/geared players. And then, if that doesn’t work, slap them around a bit until they see the light.
January 9th, 2008
This was a great post.
In my casual/raiding guild, we have a persistent problem with raid dps. It held us up for months! I would start by saying “We need everyone to examine their builds and do some research as to how to improve their toons”. That didn’t work, so it became “We’re simply not doing enough damage in these fights, dps’ers please geek out a bit and work on it”. That didn’t work, so we went to “The Talk”. We tried to work with people, get them to respec or use different skills, but these people would just play alts while not raiding. After that, raid spots went to new recruits who played better despite having worse gear. The couple people who were passed over flamed out and left because they were high availability and attendance, but didn’t work to improve. Now they’re in guilds who, surprise, can’t get past the same points. We’ve gotten back to progressing, still at a casual rate but not blocked anymore.
It was ugly the whole time.
Our policy now is not to dance around the issue. Personal conversations. “You need to do more damage to raid this content. Check out elitistjerks or your class forums.” It saves time and frustration all around.
January 9th, 2008
Another thing that can help is explain *why* you’re making these suggestions. Not just “it helps the raid” or “it raises your DPS”, but give them a little theorycraft. “Here’s exactly what this does for the raid, and here’s the benefit the raid gets, or “Here’s how the damage works, and here’s how this takes advantage of it”. This not only takes the onus of them, you’re saying they suck or that you’re better, but you make them feel smarter because now they know a little more about their class and how it works, and are in a better position to go and tweak their playstyle/spec some more to further capitialize on it. This of course all goes hand in hand with being tactful.
January 9th, 2008
Other points might be to be sure to use voice communication not typing in chat, since it’s so easy to misinterpret what is said.
Another idea might be to have reviews for everyone. This will help set the person at ease at the beginning since they’re not being singled out. Then the review is “how can you improve your performance” which everyone can.
January 9th, 2008
We’ve had to have a few of these talks lately with new recruits. It’s shape up or ship out. For some reason my guild just popped into 25 mans this month and now there is a line to join us.
January 10th, 2008
How about when the person gets all depressed and melodramatic? “You all hate me, boohoo” is the usual response from several people in our guild and it really makes me want to strangle something. You can’t hit a kitten, can you? Not that acting like a 5-year-old is adorable by any means, but it’s as if you’re stabbing a child with knife.
They immediately throw themselves on their backs and seem to see me as an executioner. Especially since I usually get all nice and start patting their backs “there there, it’s all right”.
What can I do?
I’m the mother figure in the guild, the one everyone talks about their problems and asks for advice. I can’t go shredding eyes out just because I want them to grow a spine.
January 10th, 2008
I generally get asked at some point in any guild I’ve ever joined to be an officer. I know what I’m doing, and I guess it shows, and combined with my tendency to be helpful it almost always comes up. But I’m not really suited to it, so I always want to pass unless it’s a real need for the guild. The primary reason I’m not suited for it is because I prefer directness in my interactions with others, and thus come across as overly blunt. Much of the time it’s fine; as mentioned in the post, being blunt is just what is needed in some situations, and a guild officer certainly cannot be a shrinking violet. I don’t even think I’m that harsh, and I never make things personal. But like everyone else, I’m here to play a game and have fun, and so I will call a spade a spade (an expression I use too much). And I tend to conflate tactfulness with passive aggressiveness (which I loathe). With respect to the poster above me, I absolutely support hitting kittens. I’ve been in situations where someone /gquit after I’ve talked with them, but never have I regretted my approach afterwards; if someone can’t handle constructive criticism, I don’t want them around me.
Not that any of the OP was bad advice; I actually agree with it, I just won’t practice a good portion of it. One piece of advice I’d add though, and this is one of the few things I do that might be considered tactful, is to always work through the chain of command. The rank and file should bring their issues to their class officers, who can bring it further up the chain if required, instead of bugging a higher level officer who is probably already busy as hell. And if a raid leader needs more DPS out of a player, he needs to go to that player’s class leader and get them to engage that player. It usually doesn’t net results as fast, but I believe that when you build respect for the chain of command, you also build respect for the commanders themselves, especially when the movement through the chain is visible to the rank and file (e.g., raid leader announces “Our raid’s DPS tonight was low, I’m going to ask the class officers to work with those from whom we need improvement over the next week.”). And it’s generally true that, for example, a mage will take harsh criticism from a fellow mage before they’ll take gentle advice from someone else.
Also, RE: advising friends…again, I’m pretty much direct with people and my friends understand that. So I’ll just criticize their play if it really needs criticizing, and they’ll do their best not to be offended (or argue with me if they think I’m wrong, and sometimes I am). But if you’d rather do it “tactfully”, you can always encourage trash talking in your group and insert your advice into your trash talk. That kind of thing does get through eventually, but again, I pretty much see this as passive agression.
January 10th, 2008
very well put. have had to do this more than once myself, and its never fun.
January 12th, 2008
@Sissa
Oh, I’ve faced that one before. Honestly, I do not know a method in which you can make someone not act like a child. It’s on them to be able to take your kind criticism just as it is on you to make sure you present it in a non-offensive manner.
I’ve had people burst into tears when I talk with them, and others get angry and tell me that it is all because I hate them. In both cases, I think the best you can do is keep a level tone and keep reminding them that this is not a personal attack or offense. Do not give into their game of self-pity or soon you will be fighting to climb out of a hole that they are more than willing to let you drown within.
When I deal with someone who looks up to me, I tend to use a method that places the ownerness of their actions upon them. “If you had a member of the team who was doing worse than you knew they could, what would you do?” Make them answer the questions for you, and then when they realize that it’s that simple they generally will become less plaintive.
If not, well. Can’t save them all!
@ Yunk
Aye, voice chat is a good way to make sure your tone gets across. As I was telling my girlfriend yesterday, someone can read a line of text as simple as “I care.” and see two different things. It can be “I care about what you think”, or “I really don’t care, why are you telling me?” It all has to do with inflection, and that is very hard to get across through text.
[ On that note, emoticons are NOT the tone-setter. If someone sees "I care." as "I really don't care." and then :), then it looks like you're being a smarmy asshole who wants to get smacked in the mouth. At least, that's how I have heard it explained... ]
January 15th, 2008
Fury Warrior + Hamstring as hotkey #2…
GM: Umm Mate, I think you should change your tatics for DPS… 97 Hamstrings on Gruul really isn’t helping.
Fury Warrior: Yep, I tend to mash keys alot and Hamstring is #2… It has now been moved to #5 and I use better dps moves.
Next raid. Fury Warrior increases DPS by 100 lol.
January 30th, 2008
I agree with others that a class leader is invaluable. We have a pretty good guild, so people who come in who want to improve will ask those of us in the same class that are higher on the dps list. I mean, if you had a guy who played a hunter for 6 months and 25 days /played (or whatever), would you a) pretend he doesn’t exist or b) ask for advice. I pretty much know my class inside and out. I can’t say that for others on my raid team but by and large they know their classes inside and out too.